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Young Global Leaders
Need a dose of hope? Listen to these conversations with inspiring young people from around the world.
If you want to hear what forging common ground looks like in practice, look no further.
I met these youngsters during the 2024-25 academic year, when I was Dean of Baret Scholars, a global gap year program with around 100 students from 40+ countries. We traveled together to seven global regions over the course of 8 1/2 months, during which they formed a tight-knit, loving community, grounded in the certainty that we collectively create a better future for all. They've generously agreed to let me interview them, so that their wisdom, optimism, and brilliance can shine forth for everyone's benefit.
You'll hear terms like "morning program," "afternoon options," "fellows," "fellowships," etc. These refer to different design elements of the program. The details don't matter; you'll be able to get the basic meaning from context.
Enjoy!
Young Global Leaders
Leni Holzapfel
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I had fun sitting down with Leni Holzapfel for this conversation, the final one in Season 1 of Young Global Leaders.
Follow Leni on Instagram @Lenitocca and on LinkedIn.
One resource Leni mentions during our call: Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman.
Some highlights from our conversation:
Identity, Optimism, and Reframing Indecisiveness
Leni shares what drives her character: a natural inclination toward happiness and curiosity about others. She discusses how she used to struggle with indecisiveness, and how she eventually learned to reframe that trait as an act of trust in the future.
Background and Finding Baret Scholars
Growing up in the culturally blended region of South Tyrol (Italy), Leni developed an early curiosity about different cultures. This led her to EMIS in Tel Aviv, where she experienced cross-cultural coexistence among Israeli, Palestinian, and international students firsthand during challenging political times. Her search for continued global exposure ultimately led her to apply to Baret Scholars.
Unlearning Competitiveness & Shifting to Abundance
Leni details her journey from being hyper-competitive to adopting an abundance mindset. She credits the supportive Baret community with helping her learn to do things purely for the joy of the experience.
Practicing Gratitude and Post-Program Reentry
Highlighting a tradition of daily "gratitude circles" started during her gap year, Leni reflects on the importance of noticing small details in everyday life. She discusses using this practice to stay grounded during the transition back home after an intense year of global travel.
Intercultural Communication and Cosmic Perspective
Offering advice on building relationships across diverse backgrounds, Leni emphasizes entering conversations with an open mind, listening to understand rather than respond, and keeping a "cosmic perspective" — remembering our shared human needs on this planet.
Sustainable Urban Planning & Grounded Hope
Looking to the future, Leni outlines her interest in European urban planning that prioritizes sustainability without causing severe gentrification or displacement. She concludes with a call for "grounded hope," rejecting the idea that optimism is naive, and advocating for trust in humanity's potential for good.
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Hello, and welcome to Young Global Leaders, where we get the chance to hear from young people hailing from all around the world, sharing about themselves, their accomplishments, and their vision for a better world. Recently, I had the privilege of leading a group of about 100 young people from over 40 countries to seven global regions on an eight-month global gap year program. Most of them have just graduated from high school, though we also had a few older students. During our eight-plus months together, the students have formed a deeply loving and supportive community. Anyone can see that they can build something unique and inspiring. Through my eyes as a teacher, coach, and global leadership consultant, what I saw was unlike anything I'd seen before. When the program ended, I desperately wanted to keep in touch with these students and to share their example with the world. So I started the Young Global Leaders podcast. Today we are from Lenny Hotzopfel. Lenny Holzopel, welcome.
SPEAKER_01Hi, thank you.
SPEAKER_00You're welcome.
SPEAKER_01You said my name so well. The German course uh paid off.
SPEAKER_00Well, I studied German a long time ago. My German's really, really, really, really rusty, but I I I focused very, very closely on pronunciation from uh from an early stage, and I enjoy pronouncing German. It's really fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're good at it.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh, and thank you so much for taking time out of your evening to join us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for for having me.
SPEAKER_00Where are you joining us from? And what brought you there?
SPEAKER_01Uh so I'm currently in the beautiful sunny Amsterdam, uh, which actually it sounded ironic because you don't really connect sunny with Amsterdam, I would say.
SPEAKER_00Not so much.
SPEAKER_01No, but yeah, actually, recently since last week, the weather has turned and everybody's just happy and out on the street. Like you could see how the zombies got finally reawokened from the winter sleep. Um, I'm in Amsterdam, and I'm here because I study at the University of Amsterdam. Um, I study urban planning and human geography, which yeah, it seems kind of like a random choice, but also like I didn't really know what I wanted to do, and I feel like this course had a lot of things that really interested me. So, yeah, and then after Beret, I feel like we were in contact with so many different cities around the world that I was like, I really care about cities and the future of cities, and I would like to have an impact in how to create them in a good way, in a positive way. Uh so yeah, that's why I'm in Amsterdam.
SPEAKER_00And you're in your first year of uh university, is that correct?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. I started in September, so like five, six months ago.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Nice. Um, also just on the comment about about spring. So uh I'm not sure when this episode is going to be released, but it's we're recording it on March 3rd. I've also found in in my experience, I grew up in a part of the United States with very, very long winters. And there's also something psychological when the calendar turns to March, I feel like, where it's like, okay, okay, maybe, maybe this will end somehow someday.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, because all winter, you know, my happiness level is usually on like uh nine on average, I would say. And this winter was like on an eight. And I'm like, why is it like that? And now I realize it's literally just because I haven't seen the sun in a while. So I'm good here.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Eight eight is eight is still still pretty high compared to most of us linear, which I would which which actually which actually gets in gets me into the to the next question, which is the same question I ask everybody. What makes you you?
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Really hard question to answer, I think. Um but yeah, probably one of the first things that I think of myself when I think of myself is uh that I'm a very happy person. Like I think I see reasons to be joyful in a lot of different things, um, which makes life very nice. Um yeah, I think I'm very optimistic in general. Um and I hope that from an outsider perspective, people also perceive this as like I don't know, that that I'm welcoming towards them because I really like I'm very interested in a lot of people and I'm curious about what they do, and I think I hope that I kind of give the vibe that like you know, I'm approach, like you can approach me anytime. Um but yeah, I would definitely say very happy person, and another thing that also I'm kind of working on that because it's not the best trait, but I'm a very indecisive person. Um, my best friend and I like I know her since kindergarten, so we know each other since 18 years now almost. And we the other day we had a conversation about how in kindergarten, every time somebody would ask me what my favorite color was, which back in the days, you know, these were the questions we would ask each other. We wouldn't ask each other uh uh what makes you you, we would ask each other what's your favorite color. Um yeah, back to the day, I would always say the rainbow is my favorite color because I was always scared that I would hurt all the other colors if I wouldn't say all the colors. So yeah, and now I know colors are not hurt if I don't say that blue is not my favorite color. But this is a big part of me, you know. And yeah, but I also think this is kind of like it's annoying to be very indecisive, but also uh often I'm like I don't really know what I want to do, and I trust in some higher power that now I don't want to give it a name, I don't know, the universe god, whatever. Um and I trust that it will somehow work out. So yeah, the indecisiveness comes with trust, which then usually kind of ends up going well. And that leads to the happiness part, I think.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say, yeah, it sounds like this there's a pretty direct line there. Yeah, and I I'll just mirror it back to you. I mean, absolutely the well, I can speak for myself, right? You the your your optimism and happy approach to the world comes through like in through every fiber of your being. I mean, that's that's that's just like um the very first thing that I noticed when I met you, and it was so consistent throughout the year, all the ups and downs throughout the year. It was like Lenny is somehow still smiling through it all. I don't know how she does it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. This is very nice to hear. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and also I also um I like how you tied back the what you're calling indecisiveness. I like how you tied it back to the to the faith and optimism. Um because I don't know, I mean there are times when decisiveness is called for, and there are times when it's good to just be considering a wide range of options too. So um I would just say, you know, I wouldn't so m maybe there's maybe there's room for growth to be more decisive in situations that call for decisiveness, and I would also um caution you against a blanket label of indecisiveness as like a not good trait.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but like for example, I always see beret as something where I'm like, thank God I was indecisive because otherwise, like I don't know, maybe I would have already chosen a university that I would have liked to go to. I didn't really have that. Like I was I wanted to study a hundred different things, and then kind of you know, I feel like beret then just by luckily it kind of came into the agenda and thank god I applied, but yeah, it was also mainly because I was indecisive about other aspects in life.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, or open to a wide range of experiences.
SPEAKER_01That's also true.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh so so actually that that gets right into the next question that I wanted to ask you, which is can you share with us a little bit about your story, uh your background, and how you came to hear about Bray Scholars and also to join the program?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. Um, okay, so basically I grew up in in Bolzano, which is a city in the north of Italy. Uh, it's part of an autonomous region in Italy. It's called Sud Tiro, South Tyrol. Uh, it's a little bit special, like I'm this definitely influenced me as a person a lot growing up there because you kind of grew up between two cultures because you are part of Italy. Um, but then also it 100 years ago it used to be part of Austria. Um, so people who live there are very mixed between speaking German, Italian, eating pizza and eating knudel, like it's a big uh cultural mix max, which uh I really liked uh growing up, and this also kind of made me um always very curious about just cultures in general, I would say. Um, and yeah, basically, yeah, I grew up there. I went to high school in a scientific school, uh, which I liked, but I in when I turned, especially during the years of COVID, I don't know, 14, 15, I had this really big urge. In German, there's a word for it, it's called Felnweh. I don't know if your German is. I don't know that word. Okay, so it's basically the opposite of homesickness, it's kind of your heart ache aching to go feel and like far away in the pain. Yes, exactly. So you're like okay, you want to go out there and see the world. And yeah, I wasn't that age, and I really wanted to, I don't know, get out there, see something, learn, learn about the world that is not home for me. Um, and yeah, then I looked up schools that are maybe like international schools I found out about UWC, which is this uh United World College uh international boarding schools around the world. But unfortunately at that point it was already too late to apply to UWC. Uh however, they directed me to another school which um was supposed to be part of UWC, but for some reason um it didn't end up being part of it, um, but still it had like all the values that a UWC school would also have. And yeah, the school was called Emmis, and it's in Tel Aviv in Israel. And the mission of the school was kind of peace and sustainability in the Middle East. And yeah, we were 20% Palestinians, 20% Israelis, and the rest was international. Which when I read the website, I was like, oh my god, this is amazing that a school like this exists, and also just kind of a platform that allows these different groups of people to coexist in such a I don't know, like educational way. Because I don't know, especially as an international, you learn about this conflict through media, and I don't know, my imaginative geographies of uh Palestine and Israel were very like, oh, you can't go there, like there's war, like uh people hate each other, people don't talk to each other. Um, but yeah, then I applied to the school because I was very interested in generally like the concept of the school, but also just what does it mean to live in this place of the world. Um and yeah, I got in and then I did my last two years of high school in this amazing school, which unfortunately like um like I realized while I lived there uh that it's actually very possible for these different kinds of people to coexist. Um, but also then while I was there, the war kind of escalated a lot. So that was very unfortunate to see. However, I have to say that throughout the time um the school period still was quite high, like people kept on really being with each other and experiencing this together, and especially like Israeli and Palestinians in the school uh kept on being close friends, which was really beautiful to see. Um but yeah, that was then also one of the reasons why you know it's your last year of high school, there's already a lot going on. You have your exams, you need to apply for university. A lot of things going on, plus the war, and I was there and I was like, oh my god, what am I gonna do with my life? Like, I wanna help kind of this situation, but then also I don't really know what my place is in this having a say in such a big uh conflict. Um, and yeah, then my school counselor or like university counselor, uh, she sent us this email about Beret, about uh another experience that's also kind of exposing you to a lot of just different people from all over the world. And I I read the website of Beret, and I was like, oh my god, this sounds like such a nice way in which you could have an impact, learn a lot from different people, and yeah, I decided to apply and thank God I got in with a really, really good scholarship. Um and yeah, that brought me to Bay. Sorry, that was a very long, very long description of my life.
SPEAKER_00That's hilarious. Um, I didn't experience it. I was just I was just it's a great story, it was very engrossing. I appreciate you sharing it. Uh did uh was was your family supportive of your decision to join Bray Scholars?
SPEAKER_01Oh, um I would say in Italy picking a gap year is not the most common thing. So initially when I told them they were like really against it, especially when they saw the fee, the like the price of the program. And then I was like, oh, I will apply with a scholarship, and if I have to, like if there is something that the scholarship doesn't cover, I was like, I paid the rest myself because I worked the like every summer to kind of afford I knew that I wanted to travel somehow after high school. Um so I've worked for a long time to kind of afford this, and I was like, they don't have to support me financially in any way. Um but yeah, it would be really nice if they would give me the blessing to do it. Because you know, if your parents are like, even though they allow it, but they're not they're not the biggest fan of something that you do, then it still kind of takes away a little bit of joy from me to do it. Like I need their full, like, yes, this sounds cool, you should do this. Uh like confirmation that this is a good idea, and also especially my dad, like he was like, There's no way that this program exists like this. Like he was making doing so much research, like counter-research of beret of like, no, no, this is no way, they're gonna human traffic you somewhere else. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen. Yeah, but yeah, at the end, actually, at the end, like when they brought me to the airport, both of them were really like the biggest, they were even more fans than me. They were like, I want to come in your luggage, like take us with you, kind of situation. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you brought them along after all. I mean, brought them along, not physically, emotionally, yes. Good. Well, turning our attention to the program itself, in a program like Beret, we often talk about learning. I'm wondering if you can share anything that you might have unlearned during your time with Beret.
SPEAKER_01I like that you asked, like, not what have you learned, but what have you unlearned. Um well, yeah, there's definitely a lot of things that I have learned and also then unlearned. Uh I think before Beret, no, I I'm still a very competitive person, which I think in many aspects of life can push you a lot to get to your goals. Um but uh for me at one point it kind of got to a point where it would do kind of the opposite, it would kind of it was a mental break that I had. Like either I would win something or I I wouldn't even want to do it. Like it was too too radical, you know. Like, for example, I did triathlon for a long time, and I really like I really like the sport, it's the combination of my three favorite sports, you know. So perfect, perfect match. Um, but then yeah, at some point like it got also to like the national levels, and I like it was good, I liked it, but I had to choose between kind of being good at school or continuing with triathlon, and then I was like, I would rather then be good at school, and then uh I couldn't even do triathlon because either I would do it really good or I wouldn't do it at all. You know, it was too much of a all or nothings, even though you know you can still do the sport, you don't have to be number one, like it doesn't matter. And yeah, I think in Barray, kind of traveling puts your life so much into perspective that, or at least for me, like I kind of it taught me to take myself much less seriously, like you know, take things more easily, and also doing things just because I have joy doing them, like even though there's no like direct purpose or something you you get out of it, or uh some kind of competition that you could win, or like you know, just doing something because you enjoy doing it. And now, like actually recently I signed up for a choir, which I don't even know how to read notes, you know. So it's I'm just sitting there and like what's going on, trying to copy the people next to me somehow. Uh, but you know, I I like it, it's funny, it's a random experience, um, and it brings me so much joy. So I don't really care if if everybody sounds good and then I'm like a pitch higher. Like, you know, I'm there for the vibes. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00What do you what do you think? What do you think it was about about Beret that had you unlearn that competitiveness?
SPEAKER_01Um, first of all, I think definitely the people that were there, like I think to a certain extent we were all kind of competitive people because we all being in beret already kind of makes you want to, like, you know, you applied for this nice big program, and I feel like a character trait that you need to have to do this extra step already, like to do the application, kind of makes you maybe a little bit competitive. Um but there it was just everybody was so nice with wanting everybody to be like, you know, we were all running the race together and holding hands and then running to the final part together, you know. So it was like it's not it's not relevant to kind of comp with who are you like I kept on asking myself, who are you comparing yourself to who are you competing with? Like, you know, it's so much nicer to be there with with all with everybody else. Um and also I think they were just like you realize kind of how small, like how small of a human you are, you know, like the world is so big, it doesn't really matter if bad like bad things happen everywhere and will happen all the time. Uh like your little problems aren't that deep, you know, sometimes. And there's actually like one specific uh thing that happened, uh, you know, the Klimanjaro Fellowship.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01That was I think that was really one of the things like when I applied for beret and I read that part of the like journey, I was like, oh my god, this is I really want to do this. This sounds so cool. I like this was one of the reasons that really wanted me to do like one of the reasons that I applied. For Barry for. So I was really hoping to get to this fellowship, but obviously a lot of people wanted to do this fellowship, so they had to make a choice. There were limited numbers, and unfortunately, I didn't get in. Um, but then like two days before the fellowship left, something happened and there was another spot free. And my lovely fellow Karen told me that I got the spot, and I was like, oh my god, that's so nice! Like, this is literally all that I've been talking about the past few months. Like, this is my biggest dream coming true. Um, and then like five minutes later, like after the euphoria phase, I was like, Oh, okay, but what you know, I'm from the mountains, so everybody expects me to be a mountain girl and good at hiking. What if I'm the one that ends up getting height sickness, like altitude sickness, and then I'm the one who doesn't make it, you know, like all these self-destroying kind of stupid thoughts. Because at the end of the day, who cares if if you make it to the top or not? Like, you just it doesn't matter. Uh, and I I got actually so scared that I was not gonna make it that I considered saying no to this amazing experience, and then I like I don't know, I talked to some people and they were like, girl, you wanted to do this for such a long time, like it would be stupid to just now kind of stop yourself because you have this competitiveness with with myself, kind of um. So yeah, I think, and then I said yes, obviously, and I went and we all made it to the top together. Uh and I realized, like, yeah, wow, it's so much nicer to kind of put this pressure off of my shoulders.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's so there's so much in everything that you just shared. There's a lot, there's so much to appreciate in that. I feel like going back to the competitiveness with others and how over the course of the year uh the the whole cohort, how you all came together. Um, you know, it's you've listened to a lot of the episodes, I think you mentioned so you know the the intro voiceover where I talk about any anybody could see that what the community that you had built was really just one of a kind.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and so that's a a reflection of that, I think. And I mean I associate competitiveness with a with a scarcity mindset versus an abundance mindset, and I feel like that's so much of the beauty of what you all accomplished in terms of creating this very, very loving community was was that shift from scarcity to abundance to abundance. Like, wow, we just we we can we really can have more. All of us together can really have more. Yeah, no, definitely. And then sorry, Lenny?
SPEAKER_01No, definitely, like I'm agreeing, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And then um and then your story about being competitive with yourself, kind of a similar similar theme where you almost you almost decided to limit yourself, but then and and it wasn't in and it it's not just that you individually made a decision. I mean you did make the decision to go, but also how you turned to your community and your community supported you as well in making that decision. That's also beautiful, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for sharing all of that. The next question I have for you is um, I mean, you you did kind of just answer it, but maybe there's something else you have to say as well, which is thinking back on the Beret year, what would you say are some of the main ways in which you've grown?
SPEAKER_01Okay. Um well, yeah, I I think I kind of answered it, but yeah, just to kind of say it again, I I think trav seeing so many parts of the world kind of really helped me to put my own life much into perspective, made me much more aware of the luck and privileges that I moved through the world with. Um made me also kind of be much more grateful for all the little things that I don't know I encounter in my daily lives. This is also um in there was one fellowship with Sammy and Karen. Um, and generally, like uh Sammy was one of the fellows, and I went to her afternoon option, uh, which was about the artist's way, uh, which kind of is about unblocking a creative um mental stop that artists might have. Uh and yeah, we did a lot of uh work together and how you kind of can overcome this fear of creating art just for the purpose of creating art, you know. So, uh, anyways, there was a fellowship with Sammy and Karen, and uh on this fellowship we started this little tradition of uh the gratitude circles, which would be that at the end of the day, everybody we would just sit all together and everybody would say things that they were grateful for that happened on that day. And you know, it was such a small exercise, but it was actually such an impactful exercise, I think, for all of us there, because also you could see that throughout the week, uh, at the beginning, people said like very big things they were grateful for, and then throughout the week, people started to share much smaller things, much more detailed things that they noticed throughout the day, um things that they were grateful for in other people, like we were much more open to share uh kind of our love towards each other, which I think it's more of a human thing to keep this to yourself. But because we were all just expressing this in these gratitude circles, it was a very nice community thing to do. And I think this is generally one of the things that kind of first of all connected all of us on another level and also uh helped each and every one of us to see also like really small things and appreciate um yeah, the small things in life. I know this sounds very, very quirky, but I think it's it's very true. And also still now, like if I have maybe a little down face, I start to write my three three things of the day that I'm the most grateful for, or even just small things, and like if I do this for three nights, it's it's like a game changer because you realize how many nice things are around you that you take for granted usually, um but that are actually not that obvious, you know.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love the intentionality that that you're that you're bringing to that. Um and your ability to notice when you're not as appreciative as you might want to be, you just go back to that practice of identifying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's a nice reminder to, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Especially beautiful, and then oh go ahead, no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Oh, sorry, you go, you go, you go.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01Especially like also then after Beret, you know, it's the experience of Beret was such a crazy thing that I think after a while you kind of okay, you take a flight, you take another flight, you see so many things. Like there was never I was never bored. There was always something to do, something to explore. Um, like even if you were sad for a day, I don't know, you were sad, but you were next to the Taj Mahal, so you know, life is still great, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, I think then especially going back home from this constant high that I had during the beret, it was like very not a low, but it was like, oh, okay, I'm back home now in the normal world. Like I was very uh like I don't know, there I think I had to start with this practice more again because I was like, I need to first of all be aware just that I'm home, like this is amazing. I like just because now I came from such a high high doesn't mean that now I'm on a low, like I'm just still in a good phase of my life, it's just uh on a different spectrum or on a different level, you know.
SPEAKER_00I think that's extremely powerful. Uh because I mean human beings, it's just it it's very easy for us to be led by our circumstances and have our circumstances dictate what it is that we pay attention to and what it is that we value. And what I'm hearing you share in your process of uh re-entry, you know, returning home after this really, really intense experience is you would naturally have been led to a particular kind of interpretation, which is, oh, this is just boring and normal boo. But I think what I love in particular about what you're just sharing is drawing attention to the value uh and the power of uh bringing intentionality to what it is that you decide to give your attention and your energy to. It would be really easy to just show up at home and as you were saying, just feel like this is this is a low because of where I am. But you actually brought an intentionality to that to reframe that and say, I'm actually not going to look at it this way. And thinking about the challenges of being an adult in this world, having the ability to reframe like that, I think is extremely powerful. It's hopefully inspiring to our listeners.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, also thank you for I feel like all I said this in a thousand different words and sentences that were like all over each other, and you just kind of summarized the message that I wanted to give in two sentences. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00You're welcome. You're welcome. I'm glad it could help. Well, next question I have for you is um so you're traveling the world with peers from over 40 different countries, coming from you know lots and lots of different uh value systems and uh behavioral patterns. And what I'm wondering is what insights you might have to share with our listeners about how you went about relating, building relationships with these people from all of these different places and cultures and value systems and behavioral patterns.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Um, well, first of all, I think because I went to a kind of international environment to the school before, like I think there I made the biggest uh progress in kind of communicating across cultures. Um but I think the most important things that you kind of have to put into is just being curious and going there with an open heart and an open mind, and also kind of like having a conversation in which you actually like listen to listen not and not listen to answer, you know, because I feel like often people speak across each other because they just wanna prove their point or kind of this is not even across cultures, this is just communication in general. But yeah, then like I think it's just important to find a common ground with the other people or other person that you're talking to. Uh, and if people have difficulties with finding a common ground, I think it can always help to yeah, kind of visualize, like zoom out, and you just see planet Earth like a rock in the universe, like you know, we're just all little human beings walking around this big rock, like none of us know what we're doing. We all like this shared experience of just being humans. Um, like we all we all need food, we all need sleep, we all wanna love and we want to get loved. Like, you know, we have so many things that connect us already. That I don't know, I think if you can see this, um it makes conversation maybe a little bit easier, and then and this is gonna contradict what I just said, but then also being aware of like okay, we're all we share this, but we're all still very different from each other, and that's a nice thing, like kind of appreciating the differences and being curious about the differences and learning from these differences. Um, and if you go in with a curious and open mind, then I think it can be like a very loving and insightful relationship that you're building to anyone from no matter where they're from, or yeah. Um and yeah, also I think it's important to enter the conversation with kind of expecting that things could get lost in translation, and that's not a problem. Like, we can agree to disagree, like you know, we don't have to agree on everything, like it's normal that people do things differently and speak differently, and yeah, but if your intention is good-hearted, then I think that's the most important part.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that last piece about intention, I think, is is such a key to the whole thing. Uh first of all, the cosmic perspective I haven't heard that from anyone yet. And I love that so much. It's you know, we get so involved in our own dramas and the drama of our lives and the drama of the relationships we have with other people. It's how often do we even remember that we're on this little rock in the middle of nothing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. So thank you for bringing that into our into our space here. Um, and then the bit about having an intention to connect with others can completely reframe how we might otherwise experience difference. And also, also the reminder to all of us that you just gave that we don't have to feel like we need to agree with somebody in order to appreciate their value system. And I think a lot of us get stuck right from the outset when we feel like, ooh, I just, I just no, I'm not gonna go there because then I have to sort of give up upon my own values, which I think is a is a against normal, natural sort of human condition, part of a human condition, and also scarcity-based. Right? If I'm gonna move towards you, I have to move away from myself or something like that. And I think what I hear you saying is you know, an abundance-focused. It's like, you know, something it's okay. Of course, of course we're gonna be different, and that's a beautiful thing. And it can be a beautiful thing. What would um was it ever hard for you as far as uh what whether it's with Bray scholars or or when you were at school, do you recall any times where where your value system was really challenged and you had to like do some work to get through that? Or does all kind of come naturally to you?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think with time it came always more like always more naturally. Um let me think. I think also kind of you know, the fact like the people that are that are applying to these programs, there comes already an open-mindedness that you have once you press that application button, you know. So even though we were super a big diverse cohort, it was still people that kind of wanted to get out of their comfort zone, wanted to see the world, wanted to meet other people from different cultures. Like you applied knowing all of this. So I think um, yeah, maybe I wouldn't say there was already like a baseline of agreement on a lot of values in this context, but somehow like I could find myself and my values um represented by a lot of the people that were in the cohort. So I think that made it much easier. And also, I don't know if this is yeah, I think kind of globalization and especially our generation consuming a lot of similar media things already also creates a lot of things that we share and that we can talk about, you know, like all of us having social media and seeing this new trend or whatever. Like, there's actually already so many smaller things that you're like, oh wow, okay, you also know this movie. I also watch this movie. Like, you know, it's not we're much more similar than uh would like to admit, even maybe. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00But and you you're even oh no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01No, no, you speak, sorry.
SPEAKER_00I was just gonna say you're even putting a positive spin on social media, which is the spin. I mean, you're actually you're actually you're pointing out something positive about social media because folks just love to bash social media for really good reasons, right? About the the the harms and the dangers of social media. And I love how you're pointing out one of the one of the benefits of social media. So that's what I was gonna say. What were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_01No, usually I'm the biggest social media hater, but sometimes you gotta give the credits, you know. Um but what did I want to say? Ah no, and then also like just about communication in general with um people from different cultures, like often it's just also the I'm I think I'm a very honest person, but maybe I'm not the most direct person, and I think that also backlash sometimes, especially in an international context, because often the more direct you can say something, the best you can just like that's the best way the other person will understand you. And I just know like one example that happened to me in my in the school that I did before Baret is in Italy there's this expression that we use which is die when we want to say like ah come on, like it's an expression of annoyance, but you use it a lot, like and I use it a lot also when I speak English. But in English, this sounds like die, like you know, kill yourself, or you know, and I I would say this a lot, and I wouldn't, and I didn't even think that this has a meaning actually in English that is something completely different than what I'm actually just saying, like throwing out there, you know. And then at some point, uh one of my roommates is like, Why do you tell me so many times to die? And I'm like, Oh my god, no, actually, I never meant that. I'm so sorry, and I was so happy she brought it up because she was probably like, This is such a weird, why would she say this so many times? And I I wasn't even aware that I was saying something that has this meaning, you know. So yeah, I really appreciated that she was so direct with me and being like, Why do you tell me to die? I was like, No, actually, this is not what I meant.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, shifting our attention to the future, Lenny, what can you tell us about um about what's next for you?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm planning to finish my bachelor here in Amsterdam. Um and I actually today I sent my application for like uh a really interesting urban planning kind of the future of this is specific to European cities uh because it's in Copenhagen, um, and it kind of wants to I don't know, put a perspective on how to keep cities in Europe sustainable, but also not making them very, very expensive and gentrified because these things are often they go together, which means like often when you kind of improve spaces and make them greener and nicer, they also get much more expensive, and only a specific class can afford to live in these nice neighborhoods. So this is a topic that I find very interesting, and that we also study a lot about in my uh university. And yeah, I applied for this program, which is like 10 days uh this summer, and I hope uh that's one of my next steps in life because it sounds very interesting, and that that would also be like one of these cohorts where you meet a lot of people from a lot of different places, which I think yeah, these things are always very nice and they expand your horizon in so many ways. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00In 10 days, that'll be that would be really intensive as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00And Copenhagen in summer sounds pretty nice.
SPEAKER_01Very nice, yeah. Also, then I could go meet one of my beret friends. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sarah? Oh is it Sarah?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um, okay, last question for you, Lenny. So we live in a world that's full of suffering, and a lot of that suffering is caused by humans, and it can be really easy to feel overwhelmed and to lose hope. Have you got any words to encourage us about the future?
SPEAKER_01Well yes. So I think I want to recommend a book actually here. This summer I read the book Im Grunde Gut, which in English I think it's called Humankind, a Hopeful History. And it's basically the author tries to you know, there's so many uh theories about how humanity is actually like humans are bad and we act only in self-interest, and um I don't know, a lot of negative aspects about humanity. And this author kind of tried to put a completely different light to it, and he said that humans are actually really good, just kind of maybe the system that was created around us often makes puts people in a position to act in very much self-interest. Um and he then also talks about kind of um this placebo and not placebo placebo, is that the word right? placebo placebo effect of like, you know, you think something is gonna happen, that's why it's gonna happen. And with humans, like you think, and with human, he says kind of the opposite, like there's the no-cebo effect of you think humans are bad, so you are gonna see the bad things humans do, and you're also gonna act a little bit worse with that. So he says that we should kind of already like we should kind of start to trust again more in each other, and this then will create the placebo effect of I see the good in humanity, and humanity is gonna be good because then I also act in a way where I trust others, and I think yeah, if this shift in mindsets could happen with more people, um, that could have a really good big impact on our society. Um, and also with that, I want to say like uh I think being naive of like, yeah, I am hopeful for the future, I trust humans, I trust, I know so many young, inspiring, or not young, like just inspiring, motivated people around the globe. Like, I know that these people have so much genuine care in making the world a better place for everyone. Uh, so obviously I'm gonna be hopeful, you know, and then it kind of bothers me when this hopefulness comes, is seen as like, oh, this is so naive. Like, why would you think that? Like, don't you see everything that's going on? And yeah, I see everything that's going on. I know like humans can do really bad stuff, and really bad stuff is happening every day all around the world. Um, but yeah, I have a lot of trust in I don't know. I know that good things are gonna happen. Also, humanity is so dynamic, we like changes so much. Like a hundred years ago, Earth was a different place, and a hundred years from now it's gonna look also so different. And yeah, I I don't know. I just wanna say that I am hopeful, and I think I can be hopeful because I had the privilege to meet so many people that are so inspiring. Um, but yeah, I hope the hope can spread.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I think your point about it, you know, how easy it is for people to equate hope with naivety um is itself, I mean, you didn't use this word, but that is itself, I think, a very cynical uh approach. Um one can't there is plenty of evidence if we look for it, there's plenty of evidence that there's so that there's so much hope for humanity. In fact, you know, I ended up calling this podcast Young Global Leaders just because it's descriptive, uh, you know, it's it but one of the titles that I was thinking of is was grounded hope. Because that's when I think about you all and the Bray Scholars cohort, that's what I think of. I think it's it's hope, but it's but it's grounded. It's it's it's you know, the the there's no way that you could go through the Beret experience and be naive. We think about all of the different speakers that we heard from and the places that we visited and the forms of human suffering that we were exposed to. Um so nobody could make the claim that this was you know pie in the sky, starry-eyed, or anything like that. Uh so I I really appreciate your grounding everything that you just said in the context of um evidence, right? We have evidence. It's not it's not naive. And what was the name of the book again? Was it a German? Was it in German the book?
SPEAKER_01No, the the author is Dutch. Uh it's called Humankind A Hopeful History, and his name is Rudgerl Breekman.
SPEAKER_00Okay, great. I want to make sure that we get that into the show notes.
SPEAKER_01That will be.
SPEAKER_00So I'll look it up and make sure I get that right so that the so that our listeners can can be referred to that book. And I want to read it now too.
SPEAKER_01It's very good. Because also for me, after I read that book, I was really like, oh my god, yes, let's go. I like this. It gives you a nice positive perspective on on life in general.
SPEAKER_00Well, is there anything else you want to say before we stop recording here?
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for having me. And it's it's really nice to see you again.
SPEAKER_00It's really nice to see you again, Lenny, as well. Thanks for taking time to be with us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lenny. If you did, please tell at least one friend about it. Give us a five star rating and follow the podcast. That will help others find it. Until next time, let's keep our heads clear and our hearts open.