Kazim Tug

What a joy speaking with Kazim! Here are a few of the themes from our conversation:

Identity & Belonging: Navigating a "binary" Northern Irish upbringing as a mixed-race Muslim, and finding a sense of home within international cohorts.

The Power of Unlearning: Shedding first impressions and biases while learning to balance high-octane social energy with necessary solitude.

Reentry Realities: The jarring transition from global travels to 12-hour factory shifts, and the value of staying grounded.

Optimism in Action: Using grassroots initiatives, like forming a diverse football team, as an antidote to political apathy and a catalyst for systemic change.

In the episode we mention an article Kazim wrote about integrating schools in Northern Ireland. It's a great read. You can find it here.

Follow Kazim on Instagram @kaz7im

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello and welcome to Young Global Leaders, where we get the chance to hear from young people hailing from all around the world, sharing about themselves, their accomplishments, and their vision for a better world. Recently, I had the privilege of leading a group of about a hundred young people from over 40 countries to seven global regions on an eight-month global gap year program. Most of them had just graduated from high school, though we also had a few older students. During our eight plus months together, the students formed a deeply loving and supportive community. Anyone could see that they had built something unique and inspiring. Through my eyes as a teacher, coach, and global leadership consultant, what I saw was unlike anything I'd seen before. When the program ended, I desperately wanted to keep in touch with these students and to share their example with the world. So I started the Young Global Leaders podcast. Today we hear from Cosm Tug. Cosm Tug, thank you for joining us today. Thank you very much for having me, Jason. It's my pleasure. I'm really glad that you were able to make the time to chat with me today. I'll start by asking you, where are you joining us from and what has brought you there?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Today I'm in the greatest city in Europe and maybe the entire world. I'm in London. What's brought me to London is yeah, university. So I'm here for university studying at UCL for the next two and a half years. Yeah. What are you studying there? Uh studying politics and sociology with some elective modules in French. But I seem to be spending more time on the French modules than I do on the on the politics ones. They take a lot more a lot more effort. A French language? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I've I'm starting almost at total beginner level, so trying to trying to trying to learn a well, my Turkish is a bit rusty, but um, you know, trying to try to learn a third language, attempt to learn a third language at least, and yeah, it'll be worth it in the end, I hope.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

So are you taking are you actually taking classes that are taught in French or you're just you're you're learning elementary French as a as a as a class?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

As a class, yeah, I'm learning elementary French. But I if I keep it up for the next two years, it should be um by the end, by the end of my time at UCL when I graduate it, it should be pretty good. Well we'll see. We'll see. Hopefully I stick out of, but yeah, we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Excellent. Well, I hope you enjoy it. I'm I I love languages. You you may know that about me, and so I'm I find the whole topic fascinating. All right, Cosmo, well let's get into the let's get into the the content here. Um what makes you you?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Right, what makes me me? So um I've always been, I don't want to say like I've always been unique because it sounds a bit uh sounds a bit cliche, doesn't it? But um no, I I'm mixed, so so that was always a big part of my identity growing up, um especially in a small town in in Northern Ireland that wasn't really a very diverse place. Um being half Turkish and being half Northern Irish is a very weird combo. I've never met anybody like myself. So um so that makes me me in a way because my life experience is strange. It just it's kind of strange because it's not really something that can you can replicate easily unless you are also you can be mixed, but maybe not the same two nationalities. What else makes me me? Um oh I'm not it's a very difficult question to uh to answer. There are plenty of things that make me me. I mean, I loved football, um, I love politics, I love history, I'm a massive nerd. Um I used to, when I was a little kid, I have a map behind me in my room here. I used to sit and study, study atlases um whenever I was a kid, just memorizing cities and things like that. Um yeah, I've always been fascinated by by politics, and I'm supposed you can link that back to you know where I grew up as a very politically contested area, and also being being mixed, it adds it adds another dimension. So I mean in some way you can link everything back to that. Um even for the football team I support, the football team I support or a Turkish football team kind of watch it. Um but I've only been to three games in my entire life. But you know, there's the team I watch every weekend and watch with my dad when I'm home. So I suppose you can link everything back there, but um yeah, no, I don't really I don't really know how to what makes me me, but that's a lot of it.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Great reflections. And uh I wanted to share just one of my observations about what makes you you, Cosm, from our months together on the road. Uh you just have this positive energy that flows forth from you. Uh I would see you at breakfast and you'd say, Hey Jason, you good?

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Ah yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

And uh and I whether I was good or not, you know, I would be honest, you know, I'm doing okay today. How about you? And you'd be like, I'm I'm good, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Um and uh I don't know, that it's just it's an energetic presence that you have that I think um really is uh in in infectious, which is a strange word because infectious sounds bad. Uh but it's but it's it's it's that good kind of infectious where just being around you feels good because you've got this really positive energy. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Yeah, you're welcome. Uh could you say a little bit more about your background? Because I mean I don't want to fixate on that, right? Uh but simply because you brought it up a couple of times. Your dad is Turkish. Yep. Yep. And your mother is Irish from Northern Ireland, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. Um and yes, and I'll I'll say for our listeners, there's a um a LinkedIn article that you recently wrote that I found incredibly educational. And I will link to it in the show notes so that people can see, get a sense uh a little bit more about you, the educational system that you were raised in, some of the ongoing educational political challenges in Northern Ireland, and also just your your really solid, focused, and clear writing. Uh it was just it was like when I was reading the piece at this professional level of writing, that was extremely impressive. Yeah. Well, thank you for indulging me on that question that I ask all of all my guests here on Young Global Leaders. Uh we'd love to hear more about your stories as it relates to Beret Scholars, which was the program that you and I were both on in different capacities, different roles, right? But that's how that was the context for us getting to know each other. Uh, how did you come to know about Beret Scholars and join the inaugural cohort of this program? It was by total coincidence.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

So I um I had some universities I'd gotten into, but I I wanted to go to a better one. So I said, okay, I'm gonna take a year off. I plan to do a gap year already. I'm gonna take a gap year um and I'm gonna reapply and we'll see what happens. My original plan um was to go to I have some family in Turkey. My plan was to go to Turkey, make my Turkish like perfect, um uh, yep, totally fluent. Um that was my initial plan. So I was very naive and very optimistic. I was looking for you know like jobs in Istanbul or Ismir that will pay me in Europe. So I don't even have a high school like diploma yet. You weren't there are um people who graduate from the Turkish universities and they can't get jobs, and somehow I think you know I'm yeah gonna be able to find one. Oh and behold, I couldn't find one. You know, I didn't didn't search for very long before you know before that dawned on me. But every time I searched for a job in Istanbul, the like Barrez Scholars, this thing kept coming up over and over and over again. And the first time I looked at it, I thought this this is a load of rubbish, like it has to be a scal. Um you were not alone. A lot of students thought that. Totally surreal. Like, you know, what on earth is this? It's like a fever dream, you know, you go to seven different regions and yeah, no, it's ridiculous. Um, but I was, you know, I guess crazy or stupid enough. I don't know which which one you you want to put. Uh naive enough. I don't know, worked out, but uh naive enough to apply. So I applied and um and yeah, well, that's how I found out about it and got accepted, and yeah, it was brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Love it. Wonderful. Yeah, um that was that it was uh for our listeners. The um at our graduation ceremony, the the the one of the student speakers, the fur this was kind of first thing, first line where she says, Well, I guess Beret didn't turn out to be the scam that we all thought it was. Yeah, a lot of students I think I think felt that way. Um but anyway, so thank you for sharing that. Uh so getting now into uh your experience of Beret scholars, we often talk about learning as an important outcome of a program like Beret. I'm wondering if you can share with us anything that you might have unlearned during your travels.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

I think I unlearned a lot about, especially when it came to university, like preconceptions of people. And you meet someone for the first time and maybe they don't have, you know, you don't have a great first impression. And then you, you know, before, especially in high school, I would just avoid that person and think, oh, this person's horrible. What Barrett taught me was people that they didn't change all the time and they're always different. And you really need to get to know someone before you can properly make a judgment and say, I don't like you. I mean, some people some people you're just not gonna like and you're not gonna get on with. It's fair enough. But I mean, you mean if you meet them one time and you don't like them, you know, maybe it's on you, unless they did, you know, something terrible. But uh maybe it's on you and you just need to get to know them better. So yeah, it helped me be a lot more uh sorry, it made me a lot more um I think tolerant and and patient with people who you've just met and and I mean everybody's nervous at the start, but um, people react to to you know new experiences differently. So it taught me that and um like my the people I was friends with from the start of Borre until the end of Boré, it just grew and grew and grew, or or even totally changed um some of the things. So I think Yeah, I unlearned that I shouldn't I I unlearned that I you know shouldn't preconceive people and I shouldn't have a bias against them. So yeah, but but that was probably one of my main takeaways. Um I also I thought that I was uh I thought that I was a super social person, always wanted to be with people. But being with people so often, uh I unlearned that. I realized sometimes I really you know I really like being by myself and doing things. I remember in Istanbul I went to a few football matches by myself and I loved it. It was just by myself in stands with everybody. Doing stuff in groups was amazing. Like my best memories are with people, they're not alone, but but sometimes um, yeah, I mean I had so much fun by myself just uh doing various things.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

I'm glad you had the chance to do that. Uh it probably um I would imagine took some creativity on your part to figure that out because you know the program, I mean, there's there's plenty of independent exploration that's designed into the program, but you're just around I mean you're sharing, you've got a roommate, you're there's people in the morning program, afternoon options. So uh did it take a little bit of creativity and ingenuity for you to figure out how to spend some time by yourself?

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yeah, I think in in Istanbul it was easy because I could speak speak Turkish decently and I I know the city, so it was just okay, I'm gonna go do this now. So if you have a plan, I mean with anything really, if you have a plan, it's easy to get things done. I find if I want to get something done, I want to try to do something challenging. If I have like a you know, even if it's an easy thing, like today when I woke up, I want to do my homework, I want to go to the gym, and I want to uh not eat junk food. I'm probably gonna do if I pick those three things, I'm probably gonna do it, you know, unless you know something comes up. But um, if I make a plan, things always go better. So as long as I plan tomorrow I'm gonna go to the football game, tomorrow I'm just gonna uh walk dark to triumph and walk back, something like that, then um yeah it's easy enough then.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Not eating junk food is a great thing that you've just inspired me to throw into my daily plans because woohoo, it is a weakness for me. Yeah, mine I haven't been good lately. No, no, no. Well, as you've been reflecting on the year with Beret, what would you say are some of the main ways that you've grown?

SPEAKER_02 11:53

I think that's a that's a brilliant question. Um I I'm not sure. I I really don't know. I think it made me chill chill out a lot more and understand that life is I mean, people always say life is short, but it's not it's not that short. Like you could do you could do quite a lot in a year. Um it made me appreciate being younger a lot more, like we're 19 years old and we traveled the whole world. Who you know, who on earth does that? Remember my last two years of high school, every opportunity that came, I was like, I want to do it, I want to do this, I want to do this, I want to do this, and it was just like you know, trying to find the you know, crossing a bridge, where's the next bridge? Where's the next bridge? Where's the next bridge? And you keep going and going. But um, I mean, Barray, you you're traveling with a cohort for for seven months, so there'sn't there's no more bridge. You you mean you're crossing it, and it's like a bridge with flowers and you know, a sun a rainbow and sunshine and everything. Uh so I it made me chill out a lot and it made me realize that you know it's okay to to you know just enjoy being 19 and you don't always have to be you know working the whole time. Work you need to work hard. I mean, you know, if you want anything really, but sometimes it's okay, especially you know, when you're so young because I'm not gonna get the chance to do something, you know, this crazy ever again. So uh yeah, I didn't I didn't take it for granted. I no, I really enjoyed it. Or it was um it was yeah, it was ridiculous. It's totally ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

You know, right? It's a good word for it. It's a good word for it. And I had that thought many times throughout the years like, we're really doing this. Yeah, this is still happening. This is all me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Conceptually, it's like how do you get your head around it? Well, you can't really. You just live it day after day after day, and then the days eventually end up at the end, and well, we did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm curious now because it was such a long and intense experience, and so now we are recording this January 19th of 2026. So it's now been just about eight months to the day since the program ended. I'm wondering what you might recall about the re-entry process after the program and what that was like for you.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Um it was it well, it started off well. After graduation, uh a lot of us went to Japan uh and it was amazing. There were uh one of my friends from Northern Ireland came. Uh so it was brilliant, like totally brilliant. Uh I was there for 10 days. Um so yeah, I mean it was great. It was just like a fellowship. I mean, it was I was with people and it was like a random, a random mix of people as well. So it was actually just like a fellowship, and a lot of us were living together in a big Airbnb in uh Tokyo. So it was it was amazing. Uh and after that ended, I went uh back to Northern Ireland and I started work, I think, two days later, and then I spent the whole summer working, and it was a it was a back to reality moment. Um I remember my first shift was on Monday, the fifth of Monday, the 5th or 6th of June. There was a 12-hour shift in the factory, and uh the the hours in June and July were they were I mean we had a lot of hours because the the orders were so big. Whenever the weather it's a vegetable factory, so whenever the weather is good, the orders become huge. So I remember going back and my dad laughing at me on my lunch break, just uh coming over and patting me on the back and saying, yeah, welcome back to welcome back to life. So um yeah, the re-entry process, I mean Japan was brilliant. I said that was still in my head whenever I think of Barre. Even though it wasn't actually with Baret, being in Japan with all my friends, you know, it was just a continuation. Yeah, when it really hit was when I got home and and you know I realized ah Yeah, this is this is it for the next three and a half months. Uh it was a pretty it was a pretty long summer. I had some nice things. Um I yeah, man, I went to Spain um to see Olivia. Uh she came to Northern Ireland. Um and yeah, I did a few other things. Got to see all my friends again back home and you know I had a good summer, but just a very a very long one and uh quite a tiring one. But uh probably probably have to do the same next year again, so you know. But it's okay, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Go work in the in the vegetable factory?

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Oh yeah, oh yeah. You you're number five. I'm like a returning player. Every time I come back, it's like, oh my god. Yeah, yeah. What do you do in the vegetable factory? Um, it's it's just pretty mundane. So it's work I I I work in the like well, I worked, but I will work uh in the preparation department uh since I was 16. Um pretty much you're just processing like raw vegetables. You're either washing them or cutting them and you know, sending them to another department. So it's pretty labor intensive and pretty long hours, but it pays well, especially when you're like whenever I was younger, 16, 17, 18, they would pay the same wage as they paid you know, adults to to teenagers. So it was really good then. And um I mean the people I work with there are amazing and have so much fun.

unknown 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

What is what is the actual product? Uh is it like frozen vegetables or like how what is what is the the yeah, the final product from the factory?

SPEAKER_02 16:41

They make they make a bunch of things, but it's uh like pretty much vegetarian products that you find in a supermarket, more but more like expensive supermarkets, so like Whole Foods or something like that. Like cold sour potato salad or uh couscous or um stir fry, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Interesting. So if I go to my what's the can I ask the name of the company?

SPEAKER_02 17:01

I think they're only in they only sell in the UK. I'm not sure if it's in the U.S. Well, they only sell in the UK, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

I wonder if I would find any of their products in the US.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Or MS.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Interesting. Um okay, back to re-entry. Uh I love for that. That's a great story about like your dad. I love the idea of your dad coming patting you on the back, son. Yeah. Um what about you mentioned spending a lot of time with your friends? And um, you know, I've heard a lot of stories from students returning from experiences abroad that are a lot less intense than Bray Scholars was. And even say with six weeks, they come back and they've been through so much that it can be hard to connect with their friends. Did you have any of that at all? Or was it kind of seamless? What was it like actually being with your friends again?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

That's an I know and haven't haven't thought of that very much. It's actually very very good one. Um I think the first time it was it was like nothing, nothing happened or nothing changed really. I mean, they've seen each other all they've seen each other, you know, the whole the whole year. Um none of them moved none of them moved abroad. Oh uh no, no. Last year, yes. Yes, this year um one of my friends is in the US, but uh last year they were all together in Northern Ireland, uh not at university in Belfast or or nearby. So they saw each other quite frequently and you know um things like that. But when I came back uh at winter break, we just we played football together like halfway through Bahrain. We went to McDonald's afterwards, we went to the pub. It was just the same as you know before um it was just the same as before I left. Uh I mean you do even at university with with people who I haven't met before Barray, whenever you start talking about the things you've did, sorry, the things you've done, uh someone says, Oh, I'd love to go to Kenya, and you say, Oh yeah, I've been there. They're like they look at you like you have you know four eyes. What did you just say? And then they oh I want to go to Sri Lanka. Oh yeah, I've been there as well. It's just ridiculous. And it's quite hard to Yeah, I don't know, it's quite hard to put in pr put into perspective. Um but I'm always cautious. Whenever I introduce myself, I never talk about Baret until until later because I don't know, it sounds so pretentious. Uh oh, you did a gap year, what did you do? And I'm like, oh yeah, I traveled, traveled a bit. Um and then if they press me, I you know, I'll I'll tell them I'll I'll admit it, you know, like quite happily I'll admit it. But I don't want to come across as you know pretentious or kind of like yeah, showing off. I you know, I did this, I did this, I did this. Uh which I mean we did, and you know, we got very lucky that we all did, but um yeah, I think seeing my friends back home, nothing nothing really changed. It was just we went home, you know, we did all the same stuff we used to do. Um playing PlayStation together or yeah, just the same things we always did. I I there wasn't really a total um disconnect. I mean, everybody's just kind of getting on with their lives, especially in summer, everybody's always working, so it's not like um yeah, I'm free all the time.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and I uh what you're sharing about you know the folks that you meet, it sounds like there is this experience that you had that's very much part of who you are, and you you don't want it to become at a moment when you're trying to become closer with people that you don't know yet very well, you don't want you don't want it be to become a barrier to forming a friendship. Is that an accurate interpretation of what you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 20:23

I think it's a very accurate one. I think even like my my friend, he he went to Eaton. Um one of my closer friends at UCL know he went to Eaton, but he never tells people he went to Eton. You just find out weeks later because he thinks if he tells people he went to Eton, they're gonna you know straight away make assumptions. Ah, he's posh, ah, he's you know he's so-and-so, he's so-and-so, he's yeah. So something similar to that. Pretty similar, pretty similar.

unknown 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Good. Well, onto the next question. So you were traveling the world with peers from over 40 countries. I'm guessing you know a thing or two about how to communicate and collaborate across cultures. I'm wondering what insights you might have gained in this regard as a result of uh all of your experiences with Bray scholars.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Um I mean my my my house is a pretty good representation of Baray scholars growing up. Uh we we always spoke in English, quite like Barray, um, which was my first language, but but not my dad's. So uh I could get away with this with my dad. My my mom and I, we always used to make fun of the way he'd say certain words, or especially I remember they were putting up Christmas decorations one year. Um and he's he's putting up the baubles and the floor keeps getting covered in glitter and he starts going, there are glitters everywhere. Oh I remember dying, dying laughing. And every single year when when the Christmas tree goes up, the same sentence comes out over and over and over again. So um I mean that's a that's a personal story from you know crossing cultures at home. Um in Barray, I I I just find it very easy. I uh quite seamless. I mean, where I grew up is quite binary, there aren't really it's it's not a very diverse area. I always was the I think I was the only m Muslim in my school growing up. Um part my brother and sister, but in high school I was the only one. Growing up. So it came with I mean it came with its own set of challenges. I think when you understand how someone can fail. And I used to get like a you know whenever I was young especially with especially 2015, 2016 and things with Islamic State, I used to get quite a lot of abuse from classmates or I mean it it is racism, but um I know it's not based on the color of my skin because because I I didn't really look any different I slightly I don't I don't didn't really look any different to them. But um my name's different and my dad is different and my religion is different. So it was always a it's always the first thing. You know, if someone's angry with me the first thing they'll go for is oh you're a Muslim oh you're you know so and so and so. So I think understanding that whenever you meet people who you know aren't the same as you I mean you've already been through you've been ostracized for you know I never took it to heart that much when I was a kid um and I knew that like these people are you know especially when you get older you understand I mean they might still have these biases but you can't blame them. They grew up in a in a small town in the center of Northern Ireland like you can say they're close minded or arrogant or sorry ignorant um but they weren't like you know and they're probably the first Muslim they've seen in their life so it's not like a thing they've had to deal with um and you can't totally blame you put some of the blame on them but I mean it's it's not even the I wouldn't even call it the fault of their parents. They just don't know any better because they haven't had to so it's yeah so I think when I go into Bahrain meeting people from everywhere um I mean yeah I I find it very easy. Everybody's just maybe even I find it easier than than meeting people actually yeah yeah I did I find it easier than trying to connect with people at home because I have a lot more in common with an international cohort than I do with a you know just a a binary one.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

That makes a lot of sense to me there's a um I don't I I don't think you quite fit the definition of third culture kid that you know that have you heard the have you heard of third culture kids have you ever heard that concept before yeah yeah yeah I've heard the concept yeah yeah yeah well I'll ask you do you identify as third culture kid? Um probably not no probably not I mean somewhat but but probably probably more so now the reason the reason the concept popped into my mind right there was one characteristic of third culture kids a really common characteristic of third culture kids is feeling more at home. It's like where do I belong? I don't really belong anywhere except with other third culture kids.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah you know these very worldly folks border boundary crossers folks who've been doing their whole lives have been crossing cultural boundaries and and that's why I thought of it with regard to you because it feels like from your descriptions you had so many formative experiences in inside your your home and then also being othered and ostracized in certain ways as a kid you worked through a lot of that and then here you are with this international group it's like oh these are my people yeah yeah and I I spoke to Darius a lot about it he's in London which helps and he's also mixed he's even more mixed than I am um his his background is so complicated um but we share a lot in common he grew up in Hungary um so probably a pretty pretty similar both quite conservative societies his experience to sorry his experience of high school um before he went to UWC is is probably the closest I've ever heard to my experience of growing up um mixed in Northern Ireland so yeah in some way I mean I identify with him a lot because I mean we share so much in common but um no I think uh my my closest friends most of them are aren't mixed I just you know if if I like someone and they happen to be mixed like Darius you know it's just you know it's because I like them not because they're not because they're mixed but yeah interesting good well thank you for sharing all of that so you're uh you're university now yes yes and you said how many more years uh two and a half so 2028 graduation so you had already been at university for one year when you started Beret?

SPEAKER_00 26:04

No no no uh in the UK courses are three years generally how did I not know that okay maybe I'll edit that out so the listeners don't think I'm like really ignorant. I'm kidding I'm gonna leave it in so the listeners will know. Okay three years I did yeah anyway so um do you do you have any idea at this point what you want to do after you graduate from university?

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Hopefully make money um that's the that's the main goal um after make money change the world um because you can't save anybody if you can't save yourself so that's my my life motto um I don't know I don't know what I'm gonna do I'll see where I land that's the main thing I'm trying trying so many different avenues and and trying to see what happens and I'd love to do politics it's been what I wanted to do since I was since I was younger. I think if you don't take it on your it's a very horrible job I think they get politicians get a lot of stick in the media and your entire life is online everything's public but I mean it's a hard job it's a necessary job um I mean you're a public servant and it I mean it's a it's it's something I've always wanted to do. Alternatively um I'd be looking a lot at finance or or uh banking or investment banking um which I'd say is a lot more glamorous but a lot less ethical um if you are an investment banker or a finance broker your entire premise of making money is making poor people per generally so um it's a pretty hard there they feel like I mean uh in the media especially maybe in the general maybe I would have thought this when I was younger as well I would have put politicians and investment bankers in the same you know like the axis of evil um these horrible people who steal things from everybody and uh all those things but um no meeting with a lot of politicians and and really trying to get in get involved with politics um you realize the vast majority of people in politics they're there and not no nobody like you know wants to be ostracized in public out of personal gain doesn't make any sense um they're doing it because they genuinely care and they want to make a difference and and they want to change things there are some you know bad apples but there are always gonna be but the majority of politicians are I think so um trying to do something good and trying to help people you mentioned changing the world how do you want to change those I don't mean how like the means but in what ways is the world now that you want to see it be different in the future quite a long list maybe um there's a certain president who I'd like to maybe see get lose the next election in in the where you're from um well thankfully he's not gonna he's not ever going to be on the ballot again hopefully hopefully hopefully hopefully um that would be a good start that would be a good start but unfortunately I can't do that so but that that would be a nice start um what do I want to what do I want to see I mean based on where I grew up my article on education in Northern Ireland that was a very easy thing we could do we could do it tomorrow I don't know it makes no we there was a I in the article I explained how there was a school the parents wanted to do it the students wanted to do it and the government said no because the minister didn't agree with it. It's just ridiculous a lot of things in politics like I mean that's just a pure example of tribalism um and it's democratic deficit because the majority of people in Northern Ireland they want this change the it's like legislated that it should happen and it just didn't happen. Just for our listeners we're talking about the integration of schools right yes yes yes sorry my yeah my fault the integration of schools in Northern Ireland um but changing the changing the world I mean it's quite it's quite difficult uh to change the world in in a in a meaningful way um and if you gave me the I don't know keys to the White House tomorrow well I could tell you you know a few things I'd do that to turn back what what Trump's doing but um if I was going to say how how will I change the world I mean I really don't know. It's so different. Like what what can as one person um what can I do? I think one of my favourite quotes though is Margaret Mead's quote all it takes to change the world is a small committed group of individuals something paraphrased and that's all that ever has changed the world um which is true but I mean if you want to change the world same with anything I remember when I was in Northern Ireland before I went to Boray when I was in high school I made a football team and it was the best thing I did I maybe ever because you make something much bigger than yourself. Because football how can I you know I can um I could write an article which is good swelling good you know I get praise the article's nice but you make a football team um you make something a hell of a lot bigger than yourself you know you can't play you can't you can't play football with one player. So I was the manager and I would run the social media and and um do things like that and I would pick my team every weekend and it was our friend group and the the team ended up becoming huge and and we commit we competed in a local league. So I mean that changed our lives for for maybe um the team lasted 18 months but for six months it was very serious and for those six months it did change our lives because I mean we we made new friends from everywhere. I remember at one point we had five different religions and maybe 10 different nationalities in such a you know it's a place with very little diversity and we we had so many different players and our our squad got so big we ended up having a reserve team and we started off thinking we're never going to be able to fail the team and we ended up moderately successful. So that's not changing the world but it is changing 40 young men's lives in in the town you know in my town in in the in Port of Down in Northern Ireland. And it was because I took initiative but I couldn't have done it all by myself you know I needed the other the other 39 boys and we made something a lot bigger than ourselves and yeah we all benefited from it a lot. We all a lot closer with each other as well and yeah it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

To me there's nothing like the thrill of working with others in concert towards a common goal it's so exhilarating.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

It's really good fun especially when especially when you've gone through so much and then you finally you finally win. I remember um one of our one of our games we were expected to get hammered whenever we first joined the league um we were written off because our team wasn't very good. I remember our first game we lost 7-2 uh it was a disaster and then we had a we were okay for a while but we had a really big game coming up and we ended up uh we ended up 3-0 up it was going really good uh and then penalty penalty for the other team and one of our players got assaulted by again the other team he got uh the penalty did something whatever so he went to hospital um and we could have either gone off the pitch or kept playing but we said ah we'll keep playing um the game ended it's sorry it came to 3-3 and then we scored on at the end and it ended up 4-3 and we won and that was a it was huge.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

I remember driving around the pitch afterwards with my friends uh them in their cars just beeping their horns um but whenever that worked out oh it felt so so good I love it well that that's that's that's I mean you have a 3-0 lead you give it up it would be so easy to get discouraged at that point and just say oh no you know doom and gloom this is not gonna this is not gonna go our way and then you you did and you won. That's a great story. That was brilliant yeah wow okay well um one more question for you Cosm and you you've you've kind of been doing this throughout our conversation but I'm gonna ask you to focus in on this which is we live in a world that is full of suffering and much of that suffering is caused by humans and it can be very easy to feel overwhelmed and to lose hope. Although I'm picking up that maybe it's not so easy for you to feel overwhelmed and lose hope. We'll see. What I'm curious is whether you have any words to encourage us about the future I remember when I read this question I looked at it and it actually made me feel I don't look at an existential crisis but I looked at it and I thought I mean it it is I think it's very easy to be apathetic especially I mean when you take everything into account and you think who am I?

SPEAKER_02 34:03

You don't need to be really be anybody but what can I do? One of my favorite books is a book called Politics on the edge and if it's it's of uh a guy called Rory Stewart he was a politician um for 10 years and it's the entire book is just it's pretty much a fail compilation he tries to do something he tries to do something and you know genuine things for his constituents or to to try and change law he gets some small wins and you know they're widely celebrated. He in the UK now for example you have to pay for plastic bags you have to pay a 5p tax for plastic bags every time you get one and it cut plastic plastic bag waste in the UK by 85% and that was his policy done by himself. Brilliant policy but it's one of the only things he got done in 10 years and he the book was yeah I don't know the book was very depressing. It was just uh he's trying so hard and you know really really working and it's hard to get anything done. I think I mean the worst thing you can fall into though is being apathetic and thinking oh I'm not I can't change anything because if you think that yeah well you're right you're never gonna change anything. You need to be a bit like me with Baret when I applied and I had no idea you know what the hell it was sometimes you just need to do that. I think it's always good to be doing something. Just as long as you keep moving it doesn't matter in which direction as long as you keep moving and doing something um you're like something will happen you're gonna get something and something's gonna work out. But a lot of the time it's very hard to know what way to go and that's the that's the difficult thing. I think if you were if I was told tomorrow this is how we're gonna clean up the ocean uh we need to do this this this and this and everybody gets a document and we we it's it's accomplishable um we all get a document it will it it it could probably be done but it's annoying what can I you know what can I actually do uh which is you know the difficult thing it's the same with anything um thorough things for university applications um employment or things like that you know what can I do or where do I go um so yeah I mean it's just you have to stay optimistic I'm always have been an optimistic person but sometimes I really think and I look at something and I think you know what am I doing or or or where is it actually gonna go but I think yeah just just the best thing to do is always try and do something and advice for the future um that's quite a big one. Uh yeah I'm I'm not really sure I think just try and stay happy and and try and keep moving in some direction.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

That really came through in what you just shared. What I'm picking up on is a focus on process. We don't we can't really know we it can be hard to make decisions towards outcomes but if we just keep an open mind and r remain open to the possibility that things can be better and we keep working. Yeah you know what's that's the best we can do and it's uh it's a lot, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah yeah yeah no there's a lot. I mean if you knew if you knew it's like reading a book if you knew the ending or the movie you wouldn't read the book you wouldn't watch the movie. Useless so that that's kind of the fun of it. It's also very scary um uh because you you don't know where you're gonna end up and you don't know what's gonna happen but I mean you know you either do that or you or else you do nothing.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

So yeah yeah and I I really appreciate the focus on just continuing to act continuing to act. And there's another there's another just a sort of a callback to earlier in our conversation as well and it's also coming through in what you've been sharing about the future too which is a focus on systems and changing systems. When you were sharing about your um people that you know in Northern Ireland who maybe haven't achieved certain educational level and things that they would say would be hurtful not out of uh malice but just out of ignorance. What came to mind for me was a quote from a man by the name of John Powell who he's he's here he he runs a center called the um the Othering and belonging institute which is at the University of California Berkeley and he's one of his most famous quotes is go light on people hard on systems I like that a lot yeah that's very good. Yeah yeah because we are all I mean constrained doesn't even really begin to capture like we are functioning inside of systems. Every thought that we have is based on the systems that we're in every action that we take is inside of systems. And uh it can be a lot it can be I found it to be really helpful when if I'm if I'm angry or annoyed or frustrated with a person to go back to that because God only knows I mean how much damage I'm doing every single moment because of the systems that I'm complicit with and functioning inside of. I personally love the thought of you as a decision maker because I think the systems that could be changed for the better with you making a lot of these decisions it's going to be good changes. I hope so I hope so if I could vote for you I would Cosm oh thank you thank you thank you you don't always you can always move to move to the UK you know and ask your ballot I could I mean I did it's funny it's I've always had this oh I've always had you know people because people have been joking like progressives in the United States have been joking about defecting from the U.S. since George W. Bush got elected in 2000 right so um I've never been a fan of that approach like this is my country this is my home and I need I need to do what I can here although every once in a while the thought of uh living somewhere else I do appreciate being outside of the United States which is why I've done the things I've done in my career as well. And at the same time it's like I do have a voice here and um I want to see what I can do. And it is very confounding when it feels like so overwhelming as it does right now. So I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and your thoughts and your optimism about about a better future. Thank you so much. Thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Yeah have you got any other thoughts uh that you want to share before we wrap up our conversation here Cosmic No I don't think so I just want to say you were I mean I yeah as as the dean of our cohort I I really enjoyed you there. Thought it was thought it was very good. I always liked as you you know mentioned saying you good in the corridor and you always gave a good answer. I remember in China you gave me a an egg with tea a tea egg um that was a first time I tried those and I I quite liked them so thank you for that you give me food I liked.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

That was good that's great. I love that I hadn't uh I tried forgotten about that. Thank you for the reminder. It was really special to be in Beijing for me because uh you know that's my like that's my home region in a way yeah right and and as we went through all the regions there were so many it was wonderful to learn from everybody and I was just like I was learning so much learning so much. And then when we finally got to Beijing I was able to kind of return the favor a little bit and share a little bit about about a place that is so near and dear to me as well. So I'm glad you enjoyed the egg and I'm glad you were you know willing to try it and that it was actually something that you ended up enjoying. It was quite good. It was quite good. Yeah yeah yeah it was quite nice all right Cosm well thanks again so much for taking time with us today. Thank you so so much Jason thank you for having me. My pleasure I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Cosm if you did please tell at least one friend about it. Give us a five star rating and follow the podcast. That will help others find us until next time let's keep our heads clear and our hearts open